b***@nospam.net
2005-04-11 13:52:22 UTC
There are a number of places on the net where one can find the following
quote attributed to Thomas Jefferson:
Here is just one such example:
http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/cs/blcsm_sep_danbury.htm
Thomas Jefferson & the Danbury Baptists
Myths About the Separation of Church and State
Exploring: Separation of Church & State > Church/State Myths
Myth:
Thomas Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists is not important.
Response:
Although the idea of a "wall of separation" originated with Roger Williams
and not Thomas Jefferson, it is Jefferson's phrasing which has been most
used by judges, lawyers and politicians when it comes to interpreting the
First Amendment. This is unsurprising because of Jefferson's role in the
development of our nation and our political system.
The phrase itself stems from a letter which Jefferson wrote to the Danbury
Baptist Church in Connecticut. Jefferson was president at the time and the
Danbury Baptist Association had written to him on October 7, 1801,
expressing their concern about their religious freedoms. At the time, they
were being persecuted because they did not belong to the Congregationalist
establishment in Connecticut. Jefferson responded to reassure them that he
also believed in religious liberty and said, in part:
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man
and his God; that he owes account to none other for his faith or his
worship; that the legislative powers of the government reach actions only,
and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the
whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no
law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free
exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and
State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in
behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction
the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore man to all of his
natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his
social duties.
Jefferson realized that a full separation of church and state did not exist
yet, but he hoped that society would make progress towards that goal. Was
this just a political ploy, however? It certainly can't be considered an
off-hand comment, because Jefferson had it reviewed by Levi Lincoln, his
attorney general, before he sent it. Jefferson is recorded as having told
Lincoln that he considered this letter to be a means of "sowing useful
truths and principles among the people, which might germinate and become
rooted among their political tenets."
This was, by the way, not the only time he used this phrase. It appears
again in a letter he wrote to Virginia Baptists in 1808:
Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every
person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual. State churches
that use government power to support themselves and force their views on
persons of other faiths undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state
support of the church tends to make the clergy unresponsive to the people
and leads to corruption within religion. Erecting the "wall of separation
between church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free
society.
********************************************************************************
The problem is it isn't a valid quote as the following shows:
http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeff1650.htm
Thomas Jefferson on Politics & Government
52. Freedom of Religion
Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part
of every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual.
Religious institutions that use government power in support of themselves
and force their views on persons of other faiths, or of no faith, undermine
all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of an established religion
tends to make the clergy unresponsive to their own people, and leads to
corruption within religion itself. Erecting the "wall of separation between
church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society.
"We have solved, by fair experiment, the great and interesting question
whether freedom of religion is compatible with order in government and
obedience to the laws. And we have experienced the quiet as well as the
comfort which results from leaving every one to profess freely and openly
those principles of religion which are the inductions of his own reason and
the serious convictions of his own inquiries." --Thomas Jefferson: Reply to
Virginia Baptists, 1808. ME 16:320
***********************************************************************************
As you can see the first part is not a quote by Jefferson. It is
commentary added by the editor, the late Eyler Robert Coates, Sr.
Somehow or other at some time or other the commentary got added to the
quote by someone and has been picked up by others and can be found
appearing as:
"Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part
of every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual.
Religious institutions that use government power in support of themselves
and force their views on persons of other faiths, or of no faith, undermine
all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of an established religion
tends to make the clergy unresponsive to their own people, and leads to
corruption within religion itself. Erecting the "wall of separation between
church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society."
Thomas Jefferson
"Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part
of every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual.
Religious institutions that use government power in support of themselves
and force their views on persons of other faiths, or of no faith, undermine
all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of an established religion
tends to make the clergy unresponsive to their own people, and leads to
corruption within religion itself. Erecting the "wall of separation between
church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society."
Thomas Jefferson 1808
again in a letter he wrote to Virginia Baptists in 1808:
Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every
person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual. State churches
that use government power to support themselves and force their views on
persons of other faiths undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state
support of the church tends to make the clergy unresponsive to the people
and leads to corruption within religion. Erecting the "wall of separation
between church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free
society.
Thomas Jefferson to Virginia Baptists in 1808
--Thomas Jefferson--
Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every
person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual. State churches
that use government power to support themselves and force their views on
persons of other faiths undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state
support of the church tends to make the clergy unresponsive to the people
and leads to corruption within religion. Erecting the "wall of separation
between church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free
society.
We have solved ... the great and interesting question whether freedom of
religion is compatible with order in government and obedience to the laws.
And we have experienced the quiet as well as the comfort which results from
leaving every one to profess freely and openly those principles of religion
which are the inductions of his own reason and the serious convictions of
his own inquiries.
-- Thomas Jefferson, to the Virginia Baptists (1808). This is his second
use of the term "wall of separation," here quoting his own use in the
Danbury Baptist letter.
AND
The 'Wall of Separation,' Again:
Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every
person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual. State churches
that use government power to support themselves and force their views on
persons of other faiths undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state
support of the church tends to make the clergy unresponsive to the people
and leads to corruption within religion. Erecting the "wall of separation
between church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free
society.
We have solved ... the great and interesting question whether freedom
of religion is compatible with order in government and obedience to the
laws. And we have experienced the quiet as well as the comfort which
results from leaving every one to profess freely and openly those
principles of religion which are the inductions of his own reason and the
serious convictions of his own inquiries.
-- Thomas Jefferson, to the Virginia Baptists (1808). This is his second
use of the term "wall of separation," here quoting his own use in the
Danbury Baptist letter. This wording was several times upheld by the
Supreme Court as an accurate description of the Establishment Clause:
Reynolds (98 U.S. at 164, 1879); Everson (330 U.S. at 59, 1947); McCollum
(333 U.S. at 232, 1948)
http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/jefferson.htm
**************************************************************************
Here are some examples of what one can find on the net with regards to this
quote
http://www.google.com/search?q=Moreover,+state+support+of+the+church+tends+to+make+the+clergy+unresponsive+to+the+people+and+leads+to+corruption+within+religion.+Erecting+the+%22wall+of+separation+between+church+and+state,%22+therefore,+is+absolutely+essential+in+a+free+society.&hl=en&lr=&filter=0
http://makeashorterlink.com/?Z37423DDA
Web Results 1 - 10 of about 225 for Moreover, state support of the
church tends to make the clergy unresponsive to the people and leads to
corruption within religion. Erecting the "wall of separation between church
and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society.. (0.42
seconds)
*************************************************************************************
[THE ACTUAL LETTER TO THE vIRGINIA bAPTISTS 1808 ]
TO THE GENERAL MEETING OF CORRESPONDENCE OF
THE SIX BAPTIST ASSOCIATIONS REPRESENTED AT
CHESTERFIELD, VIRGINIA.
WASHINGTON, November 21, 1808.
Thank you, fellow citizens, for your affectionate address, and I receive
with satisfaction your approbation of my motives for retirement. In
reviewing the history of the times through which we have passed, no portion
of it gives greater satisfaction, on reflection, than that which presents
the efforts of the friends of religious freedom, and the success with which
they were crowned. We have solved by fair experiment, the great and
interesting question whether freedom of religion is compatible with order
in government, and obedience to the laws. And we have experienced the quiet
as well as the comfort which results from leaving every one to profess
freely and openly those principles of religion which are the inductions of
his own reason, and the serious convictions of his own inquiries. It is a
source of great contentment to me to learn that the measures which
have been pursued in the administration of your affairs have met your
approbation. Too often we have had but a choice among difficulties; and
this situation characterizes remarkably the present moment. But, fellow
citizens, if we are faithful to our country, if we acquiesce, with good
will, in the decisions of the majority, and the nation moves in mass in the
same direction, although it may not be that which every individual thinks
best, we have nothing to fear from any quarter.
I thank you sincerely for your kind wishes for my welfare, and with equal
sincerity implore the favor of a protecting Providence for yourselves.
SOURCE:
http://www.constitution.org/tj/jeff16.htm
THE WRITINGS OF THOMAS JEFFERSON
Definitive Edition
CONTAINING HIS AUTOBIOGRAPHY, NOTES ON VIRGINIA, PARLIAMENTARY
MANUAL, OFFICIAL PAPERS, MESSAGES AND ADDRESSES, AND OTHER WRITINGS,
OFFICIAL AND PRIVATE, NOW COLLECTED AND PUBLISHED IN THEIR ENTIRETY FOR THE
FIRST TIME INCLUDING ALL OF THE ORIGINAL MANUSCRIPTS, DEPOSITED IN THE
DEPARTMENT OF STATE AND PUBLISHED IN 1853 BY ORDER OF THE JOINT COMMITTEE
OF CONGRESS WITH NUMEROUS ILLUSTRATIONS AND A COMPREHENSIVE ANALYTICAL
INDEX
ALBERT ELLERY BERGH EDITOR VOL. XVI.
ISSUED UNDER THE AUSPICES OF THE THOMAS JEFFERSON MEMORIAL ASSOCIATION
OF THE UNITED STATES WASHINGTON, D. C.
1907
COPYRIGHT, 1905, BY THE THOMAS JEFFERSON MEMORIAL ASSOCIATION
*****************************************************
AN ADDITIONAL FOLLOWUP:
************************************************************************************
Convinced that religious liberty must, most assuredly, be built into the
structural frame of the new [state] government, Jefferson proposed this
language [for the new Virginia constitution]: "All persons shall have full
and free liberty of religious opinion; nor shall any be compelled to
frequent or maintain any religious institution": freedom for religion, but
also freedom from religion. (Edwin S. Gaustad, Faith of Our Fathers:
Religion and the New Nation, San Francisco: Harper & Row, 1987, p. 38.
Jefferson proposed his language in 1776.)
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=madison+sect+jew&hl=en&lr=&selm=20030124052632.01168.00000156%40mb-fb.aol.com&rnum=6
quote attributed to Thomas Jefferson:
Here is just one such example:
http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/cs/blcsm_sep_danbury.htm
Thomas Jefferson & the Danbury Baptists
Myths About the Separation of Church and State
Exploring: Separation of Church & State > Church/State Myths
Myth:
Thomas Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists is not important.
Response:
Although the idea of a "wall of separation" originated with Roger Williams
and not Thomas Jefferson, it is Jefferson's phrasing which has been most
used by judges, lawyers and politicians when it comes to interpreting the
First Amendment. This is unsurprising because of Jefferson's role in the
development of our nation and our political system.
The phrase itself stems from a letter which Jefferson wrote to the Danbury
Baptist Church in Connecticut. Jefferson was president at the time and the
Danbury Baptist Association had written to him on October 7, 1801,
expressing their concern about their religious freedoms. At the time, they
were being persecuted because they did not belong to the Congregationalist
establishment in Connecticut. Jefferson responded to reassure them that he
also believed in religious liberty and said, in part:
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man
and his God; that he owes account to none other for his faith or his
worship; that the legislative powers of the government reach actions only,
and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the
whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no
law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free
exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and
State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in
behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction
the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore man to all of his
natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his
social duties.
Jefferson realized that a full separation of church and state did not exist
yet, but he hoped that society would make progress towards that goal. Was
this just a political ploy, however? It certainly can't be considered an
off-hand comment, because Jefferson had it reviewed by Levi Lincoln, his
attorney general, before he sent it. Jefferson is recorded as having told
Lincoln that he considered this letter to be a means of "sowing useful
truths and principles among the people, which might germinate and become
rooted among their political tenets."
This was, by the way, not the only time he used this phrase. It appears
again in a letter he wrote to Virginia Baptists in 1808:
Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every
person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual. State churches
that use government power to support themselves and force their views on
persons of other faiths undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state
support of the church tends to make the clergy unresponsive to the people
and leads to corruption within religion. Erecting the "wall of separation
between church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free
society.
********************************************************************************
The problem is it isn't a valid quote as the following shows:
http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeff1650.htm
Thomas Jefferson on Politics & Government
52. Freedom of Religion
Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part
of every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual.
Religious institutions that use government power in support of themselves
and force their views on persons of other faiths, or of no faith, undermine
all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of an established religion
tends to make the clergy unresponsive to their own people, and leads to
corruption within religion itself. Erecting the "wall of separation between
church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society.
"We have solved, by fair experiment, the great and interesting question
whether freedom of religion is compatible with order in government and
obedience to the laws. And we have experienced the quiet as well as the
comfort which results from leaving every one to profess freely and openly
those principles of religion which are the inductions of his own reason and
the serious convictions of his own inquiries." --Thomas Jefferson: Reply to
Virginia Baptists, 1808. ME 16:320
***********************************************************************************
As you can see the first part is not a quote by Jefferson. It is
commentary added by the editor, the late Eyler Robert Coates, Sr.
Somehow or other at some time or other the commentary got added to the
quote by someone and has been picked up by others and can be found
appearing as:
"Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part
of every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual.
Religious institutions that use government power in support of themselves
and force their views on persons of other faiths, or of no faith, undermine
all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of an established religion
tends to make the clergy unresponsive to their own people, and leads to
corruption within religion itself. Erecting the "wall of separation between
church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society."
Thomas Jefferson
"Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part
of every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual.
Religious institutions that use government power in support of themselves
and force their views on persons of other faiths, or of no faith, undermine
all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of an established religion
tends to make the clergy unresponsive to their own people, and leads to
corruption within religion itself. Erecting the "wall of separation between
church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society."
Thomas Jefferson 1808
again in a letter he wrote to Virginia Baptists in 1808:
Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every
person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual. State churches
that use government power to support themselves and force their views on
persons of other faiths undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state
support of the church tends to make the clergy unresponsive to the people
and leads to corruption within religion. Erecting the "wall of separation
between church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free
society.
Thomas Jefferson to Virginia Baptists in 1808
--Thomas Jefferson--
Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every
person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual. State churches
that use government power to support themselves and force their views on
persons of other faiths undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state
support of the church tends to make the clergy unresponsive to the people
and leads to corruption within religion. Erecting the "wall of separation
between church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free
society.
We have solved ... the great and interesting question whether freedom of
religion is compatible with order in government and obedience to the laws.
And we have experienced the quiet as well as the comfort which results from
leaving every one to profess freely and openly those principles of religion
which are the inductions of his own reason and the serious convictions of
his own inquiries.
-- Thomas Jefferson, to the Virginia Baptists (1808). This is his second
use of the term "wall of separation," here quoting his own use in the
Danbury Baptist letter.
AND
The 'Wall of Separation,' Again:
Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every
person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual. State churches
that use government power to support themselves and force their views on
persons of other faiths undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state
support of the church tends to make the clergy unresponsive to the people
and leads to corruption within religion. Erecting the "wall of separation
between church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free
society.
We have solved ... the great and interesting question whether freedom
of religion is compatible with order in government and obedience to the
laws. And we have experienced the quiet as well as the comfort which
results from leaving every one to profess freely and openly those
principles of religion which are the inductions of his own reason and the
serious convictions of his own inquiries.
-- Thomas Jefferson, to the Virginia Baptists (1808). This is his second
use of the term "wall of separation," here quoting his own use in the
Danbury Baptist letter. This wording was several times upheld by the
Supreme Court as an accurate description of the Establishment Clause:
Reynolds (98 U.S. at 164, 1879); Everson (330 U.S. at 59, 1947); McCollum
(333 U.S. at 232, 1948)
http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/jefferson.htm
**************************************************************************
Here are some examples of what one can find on the net with regards to this
quote
http://www.google.com/search?q=Moreover,+state+support+of+the+church+tends+to+make+the+clergy+unresponsive+to+the+people+and+leads+to+corruption+within+religion.+Erecting+the+%22wall+of+separation+between+church+and+state,%22+therefore,+is+absolutely+essential+in+a+free+society.&hl=en&lr=&filter=0
http://makeashorterlink.com/?Z37423DDA
Web Results 1 - 10 of about 225 for Moreover, state support of the
church tends to make the clergy unresponsive to the people and leads to
corruption within religion. Erecting the "wall of separation between church
and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society.. (0.42
seconds)
*************************************************************************************
[THE ACTUAL LETTER TO THE vIRGINIA bAPTISTS 1808 ]
TO THE GENERAL MEETING OF CORRESPONDENCE OF
THE SIX BAPTIST ASSOCIATIONS REPRESENTED AT
CHESTERFIELD, VIRGINIA.
WASHINGTON, November 21, 1808.
Thank you, fellow citizens, for your affectionate address, and I receive
with satisfaction your approbation of my motives for retirement. In
reviewing the history of the times through which we have passed, no portion
of it gives greater satisfaction, on reflection, than that which presents
the efforts of the friends of religious freedom, and the success with which
they were crowned. We have solved by fair experiment, the great and
interesting question whether freedom of religion is compatible with order
in government, and obedience to the laws. And we have experienced the quiet
as well as the comfort which results from leaving every one to profess
freely and openly those principles of religion which are the inductions of
his own reason, and the serious convictions of his own inquiries. It is a
source of great contentment to me to learn that the measures which
have been pursued in the administration of your affairs have met your
approbation. Too often we have had but a choice among difficulties; and
this situation characterizes remarkably the present moment. But, fellow
citizens, if we are faithful to our country, if we acquiesce, with good
will, in the decisions of the majority, and the nation moves in mass in the
same direction, although it may not be that which every individual thinks
best, we have nothing to fear from any quarter.
I thank you sincerely for your kind wishes for my welfare, and with equal
sincerity implore the favor of a protecting Providence for yourselves.
SOURCE:
http://www.constitution.org/tj/jeff16.htm
THE WRITINGS OF THOMAS JEFFERSON
Definitive Edition
CONTAINING HIS AUTOBIOGRAPHY, NOTES ON VIRGINIA, PARLIAMENTARY
MANUAL, OFFICIAL PAPERS, MESSAGES AND ADDRESSES, AND OTHER WRITINGS,
OFFICIAL AND PRIVATE, NOW COLLECTED AND PUBLISHED IN THEIR ENTIRETY FOR THE
FIRST TIME INCLUDING ALL OF THE ORIGINAL MANUSCRIPTS, DEPOSITED IN THE
DEPARTMENT OF STATE AND PUBLISHED IN 1853 BY ORDER OF THE JOINT COMMITTEE
OF CONGRESS WITH NUMEROUS ILLUSTRATIONS AND A COMPREHENSIVE ANALYTICAL
INDEX
ALBERT ELLERY BERGH EDITOR VOL. XVI.
ISSUED UNDER THE AUSPICES OF THE THOMAS JEFFERSON MEMORIAL ASSOCIATION
OF THE UNITED STATES WASHINGTON, D. C.
1907
COPYRIGHT, 1905, BY THE THOMAS JEFFERSON MEMORIAL ASSOCIATION
*****************************************************
AN ADDITIONAL FOLLOWUP:
************************************************************************************
Convinced that religious liberty must, most assuredly, be built into the
structural frame of the new [state] government, Jefferson proposed this
language [for the new Virginia constitution]: "All persons shall have full
and free liberty of religious opinion; nor shall any be compelled to
frequent or maintain any religious institution": freedom for religion, but
also freedom from religion. (Edwin S. Gaustad, Faith of Our Fathers:
Religion and the New Nation, San Francisco: Harper & Row, 1987, p. 38.
Jefferson proposed his language in 1776.)
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=madison+sect+jew&hl=en&lr=&selm=20030124052632.01168.00000156%40mb-fb.aol.com&rnum=6